Is artificial intelligence a threat — or a tool for love? Episcopal priest Cathie Caimano thinks it's the latter, and she joins Dennis in making the case that most church conversations about AI are missing the point entirely.
Drawing from Pope Leo's encyclical Magnifica Humanitas, Cathie argues the question isn't whether AI is good or bad, but how each of us chooses to use it. While headlines focused on the Pope's warnings about AI's dangers, Cathie found something different at the heart of the encyclical — a call to examine our own values and ask how we are using these powerful new tools to love God and love our neighbor.
Shownotes:
The Pope said Use AI for Love'
Bless Me Father, For I Have Sinned in using AI.
Related Episodes:
Navigating the AI Apocalypse with Michael DeLashmutt | Episode 284
Can AI Help or Hinder Human Flourishing? with Paul Hoffman | Episode 266
Pastoral Leadership and ChatGPT with Jeremy Wilhelmi | Episode 178
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00:00:26 --> 00:00:30 Hello and welcome to Church and Main a podcast for people interested in the
00:00:30 --> 00:00:35 intersection of faith politics and culture i'm dennis sanders your host so i
00:00:35 --> 00:00:36 want to let you in on a little secret,
00:00:38 --> 00:00:44 i use ai or artificial intelligence i actually use it to help produce this podcast um,
00:00:46 --> 00:00:50 i have a tool that can kind of help with audio kind of balancing things out,
00:00:51 --> 00:00:53 and I use it for other things as well.
00:00:54 --> 00:00:59 I actually do help it to write things like podcast descriptions,
00:00:59 --> 00:01:02 like the description for this episode. I use that.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:08 I do actually use it with some edits on my end. So I don't, I very,
00:01:08 --> 00:01:11 I actually almost never cut and paste it.
00:01:12 --> 00:01:18 I'm always kind of looking to see how it makes it and what I want it to do.
00:01:19 --> 00:01:24 I don't use it for writing sermons, partially because I think that sermons are
00:01:24 --> 00:01:29 to be, that's really, you're bringing God's word to the people,
00:01:29 --> 00:01:33 and that shouldn't come from Chet, GBT, or Claude.
00:01:35 --> 00:01:42 But I do use AI in a lot of different ways. And yet I feel really wary of sharing
00:01:42 --> 00:01:47 that because there is so much anxiety surrounding AI.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:53 We worry about things like data centers, the potential loss of jobs from AI,
00:01:54 --> 00:01:58 people entering into relationships with chatbox, and, of course,
00:01:59 --> 00:02:03 the fear that AI could go all Skynet or Matrix on us.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:09 And for the kids, I'm referring to two movies from the 80s and 90s where AI
00:02:09 --> 00:02:11 tried to destroy humanity.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:19 Now, as I said in a recent podcast, in the release of the most recent papal
00:02:19 --> 00:02:24 encyclical, Magnifica Humanitas by Pope Leo, laid out some concerns with AI.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:29 And I haven't read the full document, but I think that the Pope is helping the
00:02:29 --> 00:02:34 church start to think about what AI is for. or how do we use technology?
00:02:35 --> 00:02:40 Now, the media, though, tended to hone in on the problems with AI,
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 and that's all left me wondering.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:50 Is there anything good about AI? Do people in the church think that there's anything good about AI?
00:02:52 --> 00:02:58 Well, for one pastor, AI isn't a threat. Instead, she sees it as a tool for love.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:07 Episcopal priest Kathy Caimano wrote in her substat how the Pope's encyclical
00:03:07 --> 00:03:10 shows that AI can be actually used for love.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 And she wrote in her essay this following quote.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:21 Quote, We have the choice to share love in this world, or division.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:26 We have the choice to use technology for harm or indifference to our neighbors,
00:03:26 --> 00:03:31 or use it to build relationships, foster community, care for one another in
00:03:31 --> 00:03:34 God's name, and tell the saving story of Jesus. Unquote.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:40 Now, her message is really so different from a lot of people in the media,
00:03:40 --> 00:03:42 but especially from a lot of church leaders.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:46 So, I really wanted to have her on the podcast to talk about this.
00:03:47 --> 00:03:54 And so, in this episode, I am welcoming back Fr. Kathy Caimano on the podcast.
00:03:55 --> 00:03:57 And before we go into that discussion a little bit about her,
00:03:58 --> 00:04:03 she calls herself a free-range priest in North Carolina, where she works with
00:04:03 --> 00:04:06 a lot of small parishes out there.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:14 So with that out of the way, I hope that you will join me in this engaging conversation
00:04:14 --> 00:04:19 about seeing AI as a tool for love with Kathy Kaimano.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:42 Well, Kathy, it is good to have you back on the podcast. Thank you.
00:04:42 --> 00:04:47 Kind of before we go into our discussion, maybe just a very quick intro for
00:04:47 --> 00:04:50 people who haven't heard from you before.
00:04:50 --> 00:04:54 Yes, really quick intro is a hard thing with me, but I'm going to try to keep it brief.
00:04:56 --> 00:04:59 Thank you for having me. I'm really honored to be here. My name is Kathy Caimano.
00:04:59 --> 00:05:05 So Father Kathy, I'm also known as, I'm an Episcopal priest of 26 years,
00:05:05 --> 00:05:08 and I've been a free-range priest for the last decade.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:14 And what that means is I work at reimagining ministry in the digital age,
00:05:14 --> 00:05:18 how we do and be church in new ways in this new context in the new church.
00:05:19 --> 00:05:24 And I'm just leaving it at that. That's kind of the basics of who I am and what I'm doing here.
00:05:25 --> 00:05:30 Okay. So the reason I wanted to have you back on is to talk a little bit about
00:05:30 --> 00:05:35 artificial intelligence, which is all in the news today, these days,
00:05:36 --> 00:05:45 especially since the release of Pope Leo's encyclical, Magnifica Humanitas, which focuses on AI.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:52 I'm still reading it, going through it. It's a fascinating read.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:59 It is. But you had an interesting article that came up.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:04 And the reason I wanted to talk to you is because your article is so different
00:06:04 --> 00:06:10 than a lot of stuff I see on Substack or in the media.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:16 Where AI is almost always viewed as a threat. It's a danger.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:22 Yeah. And so, but you, I mean, the title of your post says it all.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 You said, the Pope says use AI for love.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:31 And so I kind of wanted to talk to you about what led you to write the article,
00:06:32 --> 00:06:37 and what is it all about? How do you see AI as being used for love?
00:06:37 --> 00:06:40 Oh, thank you. Thank you for the question. Thanks for reading my article and
00:06:40 --> 00:06:42 thanks for inviting me here again.
00:06:42 --> 00:06:47 I'm so glad you asked because I am very pro-AI, if you will.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:50 I do recognize that there are dangers and mostly that there are,
00:06:51 --> 00:06:53 you know, most things we don't know, right? And that's one of the things that's
00:06:53 --> 00:06:55 so scary about it is we're on the verge of something.
00:06:56 --> 00:07:00 So I want to start right by saying that, you know, that I certainly don't have
00:07:00 --> 00:07:04 knowledge that other people don't and I am not without fears about AI.
00:07:04 --> 00:07:09 On the other hand, I was part of a discussion group in another online group
00:07:09 --> 00:07:13 about AI, and we were just getting together to talk about AI in church.
00:07:13 --> 00:07:17 And I have to say, I mean, I was really taken aback. So this happened a few
00:07:17 --> 00:07:21 weeks before the encyclical came out about the negative feelings.
00:07:23 --> 00:07:28 I was not prepared for that because I am very pro-technology, very pro-AI, and I'm,
00:07:30 --> 00:07:37 Mostly, what I love so much personally about AI is that it, how to put it,
00:07:37 --> 00:07:41 it puts into relief who we are as human beings, right?
00:07:42 --> 00:07:46 So, to me, I mean, human beings have souls.
00:07:46 --> 00:07:51 We are made in the image of God, right? And a machine can never be that.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:55 And it's one thing that a machine can never do. And so, to me,
00:07:55 --> 00:08:01 it's like so much of what's about AI is about reducing things to tasks, right?
00:08:01 --> 00:08:06 So it's about our human productivity. It's about what we can and can't do as humans.
00:08:06 --> 00:08:11 And when you think about that, there is no question that AI is already smarter
00:08:11 --> 00:08:16 than us, stronger than us, that sort of thing. It never gets tired. It never has a bad day.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 It can work 24-7 to pay it.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:23 And it knows so many more things than we know, but is that what makes us human?
00:08:23 --> 00:08:26 And I personally do not think that that's what makes us human.
00:08:26 --> 00:08:30 I think what makes us human is that we are made in the image of God.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:36 And I think that each and every one of us has but one job on this earth,
00:08:37 --> 00:08:40 and that is learning to love and be loved. That's what we're here for.
00:08:40 --> 00:08:44 That's the big meaning of life. And that's just how I see it as a Christian
00:08:44 --> 00:08:45 and as a pastor, as a priest.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:52 And so to me, what makes it fascinating about AI is what it can't do, right?
00:08:52 --> 00:08:58 And how clearly AI writing is in a lot of times kind of empty,
00:08:58 --> 00:09:02 right? It uses a lot of words that don't seem to have a lot of meaning, right?
00:09:02 --> 00:09:07 AI art, like, yes, I'm sure if you tried really hard, you could probably fake
00:09:07 --> 00:09:10 me out and you could say, was this done by AI? And I would get it wrong.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:16 But when you really think about it, the music and art and that sort of thing, it's lacking soul.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:21 There's not that underlying it's not the technique it's that art is about reflecting
00:09:21 --> 00:09:22 god's beauty into this world right,
00:09:23 --> 00:09:28 and so that's why i loved it and i was totally unprepared to be in a room of
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 other christians who were just uniform uniformly like this is a terrible thing
00:09:32 --> 00:09:35 we need to regulate it we need to stop doing you know all this kind of stuff,
00:09:36 --> 00:09:40 so imagine my surprise well first so i was taken aback by that it was just news
00:09:40 --> 00:09:46 to me it was just not my experience and not what i had read or been part of before this.
00:09:47 --> 00:09:51 So when the Pope put out the encyclical, and then at first I didn't read the
00:09:51 --> 00:09:54 encyclical, I just read the news stories about it.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:59 And it was like, everything was negative. And I put it in my blog.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:03 It said, like the New York Times, Pope Leo warns of risks. You know,
00:10:03 --> 00:10:07 The Atlantic, Pope Leo's unsettling vision of the AI future.
00:10:08 --> 00:10:13 Reuters, Pope urging AI regulation warns that some weapons now beyond humanity's control.
00:10:14 --> 00:10:17 And I actually thought to myself, I have great respect for the Pope,
00:10:17 --> 00:10:21 and I'm so excited about our new American Pope, and I think he's lovely.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:25 And I'm a former Roman Catholic, but even if I weren't, I still think that the
00:10:25 --> 00:10:32 Pope deserves the respect of his position and who he is. And I was like,
00:10:32 --> 00:10:36 truly, is there no true theology in this whole encyclical?
00:10:36 --> 00:10:40 And so imagine my surprise when I took it upon myself to go directly to the
00:10:40 --> 00:10:45 encyclical when I felt like it was full of that kind of.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:52 Basically calling us to love and calling us to truly be the human beings made
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 in the image of God that we are.
00:10:55 --> 00:11:01 And so one of the comments that I worked my blog around was that comment where the Pope says,
00:11:02 --> 00:11:06 questioning this alternative path of progress and how we interpret and live
00:11:06 --> 00:11:11 it is ultimately a matter of examining our own hearts.
00:11:11 --> 00:11:17 The way we understand and shape relationships, work and institutions in practice
00:11:17 --> 00:11:19 reveals our fundamental values.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:24 In the end, it all stems from what we hold most dear.
00:11:25 --> 00:11:31 This is a love that guides us as to what we truly cherish, both as individuals
00:11:31 --> 00:11:34 and as a society, and directs our lives and actions.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:37 And the one other thing I'm going to say, and then I'm sure you have questions,
00:11:37 --> 00:11:41 but first of all, that's totally spoke to me. And I felt that sense of love
00:11:41 --> 00:11:44 throughout. Yes, he does. Like the New York Times did not misquote the Pope.
00:11:44 --> 00:11:48 Like he absolutely does warn of weapons and all sorts of other things.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:50 There's nothing that is not factually incorrect.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:57 But to me, I felt that sense of love and sense of the Pope calling us to use
00:11:57 --> 00:12:03 AI to basically express our values and our callings.
00:12:04 --> 00:12:11 I felt like it shined right through it. And the other part of what sort of prompted
00:12:11 --> 00:12:15 me to write the article was this idea of we.
00:12:16 --> 00:12:19 Like in this, I got in the conversation too, this, I feel like there's this
00:12:19 --> 00:12:24 sense that we need to be against AI and we need to go and protest and we need
00:12:24 --> 00:12:29 to get the government to make regulations or get these billionaires to stop
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 doing that or start doing that.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:39 And one of the amazing powers I think that AI does give us is that,
00:12:40 --> 00:12:47 we, me, you, individual people, we are also now more powerful and faster at
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 our work than we have ever been before.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:54 We have this amazing tool to use it for love, right?
00:12:54 --> 00:13:01 We don't have to, we can, but we don't necessarily have to use our energy to
00:13:01 --> 00:13:07 try to work against other people, other institutions, other kind of like,
00:13:07 --> 00:13:08 you know, sort of like...
00:13:10 --> 00:13:15 Was taking this away from a personal thing into saying, well,
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 you shouldn't do that, and you should do that, and this should happen,
00:13:18 --> 00:13:21 and that shouldn't happen, into I have a calling.
00:13:22 --> 00:13:29 I have something I need to say or need to do that can be amplified and made easier through AI.
00:13:29 --> 00:13:36 And so to me, this is a calling to us, each of us individually to say,
00:13:36 --> 00:13:42 how am I using these tools to love God and love my neighbor, to make love more,
00:13:43 --> 00:13:47 to basically live out my calling, to learn how to be loved and to live in this
00:13:47 --> 00:13:48 world in love and in peace.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:54 And, you know, again, ironically, it's AI that gives us that power.
00:13:54 --> 00:13:56 I mean, we have the power to do it because we're humans.
00:13:56 --> 00:14:01 But now we have tools in front of us that everyday people like you and me have platforms.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:06 We have abilities to reach people. We have abilities to create things in ways,
00:14:07 --> 00:14:10 that we can package them and engage people with.
00:14:10 --> 00:14:15 And we can do that right here in the guest room at my mother's house where I am right now, right?
00:14:16 --> 00:14:21 And so to me, that's a calling. That's a challenge in a really good way.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 There's nothing I can do. I don't really feel there's much I can do to influence,
00:14:26 --> 00:14:28 what the owners of the tech companies are doing.
00:14:29 --> 00:14:32 Honestly, I don't feel like there's much I can do to influence what the government is doing.
00:14:32 --> 00:14:37 But I don't have to. I now have tools in front of me that I can use to do these
00:14:37 --> 00:14:41 things that make the world the kind of world that I want to live in.
00:14:43 --> 00:14:48 You know, I think one of the questions that I have, and I'm probably closer
00:14:48 --> 00:14:54 to your view when it comes to AI, is why do people have such fear about AI?
00:14:54 --> 00:15:02 I mean, there is just, I mean, you talked about people in your group of pastors
00:15:02 --> 00:15:03 and other church leaders.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:11 There just seems to be this really fear of it, and also maybe almost a desire
00:15:11 --> 00:15:14 that we can just wish it away.
00:15:15 --> 00:15:19 Where does that come from? Well, I mean, I do think this is a paradigm shift.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:22 I mean, like somebody, I can't remember if I was talking to somebody,
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25 I was reading this, but somebody compared it to,
00:15:26 --> 00:15:30 like the discovery of fire right like it's even like i compared it to like the
00:15:30 --> 00:15:36 printing press but i think it's it's wider than that this this is a fundamental shift in,
00:15:37 --> 00:15:41 how our world works and what we can do in the world and i think that is it's
00:15:41 --> 00:15:45 all change people hate change right especially church people but people in general
00:15:45 --> 00:15:47 hate change and we can't control it.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:53 And we, like, just like fire, it can be used for amazing things.
00:15:53 --> 00:15:55 It can also be incredibly destructive.
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 And so, I think, I think, I think,
00:15:59 --> 00:16:03 If we are used to a world in which humans,
00:16:03 --> 00:16:09 you know, ultimately have like the power and the intellectual ability to affect
00:16:09 --> 00:16:13 change and to do things in the world, we now have created something that's now
00:16:13 --> 00:16:17 creating itself to do things that we literally can't dream of right now.
00:16:18 --> 00:16:23 And so I can see that lack of control. It's like we don't know how this is going
00:16:23 --> 00:16:26 to end. I mean, again, it's sort of like climate change. And we may differ on
00:16:26 --> 00:16:32 our thoughts about climate change. To me, it's not whether or not the climate is changing. It is.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:38 It is, and we are part of this, like, to me, we're part of a story, right?
00:16:38 --> 00:16:41 That honestly, God has written and only God knows the answer to it.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:47 And to try to fight that, I think is futile, but I also think it's not faithful, right?
00:16:47 --> 00:16:51 Like we, I think this idea that we are the center of things and we get to decide
00:16:51 --> 00:16:55 and we get to control is hard for all of us. I mean, I just think that's the
00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 human way and that our lives are not our own and our world is not our own.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:03 And again, yes, we can affect change in certain ways.
00:17:03 --> 00:17:07 But on the other hand, there is so much that there's not anything we can do
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 about, right? And so I think that AI brings that up to the surface.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 We can't control it and it could be catastrophic.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:19 And so that just brings up this like terrible. And also, I think there's this
00:17:19 --> 00:17:25 shadowy sense in some corners, maybe in more corners than I'd like to think,
00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 this idea that there are bad actors, right?
00:17:28 --> 00:17:32 That there are bad governments or bad people or, you know, trying to use these
00:17:32 --> 00:17:34 to cause harm. And I'm not saying there aren't, right? Like,
00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 to be totally honest, like, you know.
00:17:38 --> 00:17:42 I don't dispute that. But again, to me, that's the age old thing,
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 right? That's always been true.
00:17:44 --> 00:17:48 There's always been bad actors, bad governments, whatever, trying to use any
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51 kind of technology to harm other people. And so...
00:17:52 --> 00:17:54 Yeah, that may not have answered your question, but I think that's where it's
00:17:54 --> 00:17:58 coming from. It doesn't surprise me that people are so, there's so much fear,
00:17:58 --> 00:18:02 but I think it then it brings out sort of, it comes out as anger.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:06 Well, it reminds me a lot of, you
00:18:06 --> 00:18:10 talked about fire, and I guess this is something that's also related, is.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 The splitting of the atom, nuclear power. Right, yeah.
00:18:16 --> 00:18:20 Because, you know, on the one hand, it can create,
00:18:22 --> 00:18:29 I think in my view, a great power source that's clean and can power just totally
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 homes, but it can also create a weapon that can destroy millions.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:39 Right. So, it's this thing that can be used for good and can be used for evil.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:46 But there are lots of things out there in our world that have these kind of,
00:18:46 --> 00:18:52 dual uses that can be good and bad. And the question is, how do we use these
00:18:52 --> 00:18:55 things that are very powerful? Right.
00:18:55 --> 00:18:59 And I think our distrust, and again, I think it's pretty obvious we live in
00:18:59 --> 00:19:00 a time of great distrust.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:06 And this distrust of like, I want people like me to have access to these things.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:10 And I don't want people like you, whoever you are, to have access to these things.
00:19:10 --> 00:19:15 And I get very stressed when people like you have access, because who knows what you'll do with it.
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 But people like me, we will be very responsible. But I just think that's a false
00:19:19 --> 00:19:22 dichotomy. And this goes back to what makes us human, right?
00:19:22 --> 00:19:27 I think it both underestimates humanity and also overestimates humanity.
00:19:27 --> 00:19:30 And again, this goes back to my faith and saying, like, ultimately,
00:19:30 --> 00:19:36 we are all sinners, right? Like, none of us has got, like, the moral high ground over other people.
00:19:36 --> 00:19:38 We just sin in different ways, right?
00:19:39 --> 00:19:45 Like none of us is perfect. And I am, I mean, yeah, I feel like whoever's in
00:19:45 --> 00:19:50 charge of these things, I'm still going to have some level of fear that they
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 are going to misuse them or whatever.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:56 But on the other hand, that's the human condition, right? We live in a world,
00:19:56 --> 00:20:00 we live in a fallen world. And, you know, occasionally we live up to the best
00:20:00 --> 00:20:03 we can be. And that's awesome. Often enough, we don't.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:06 But I guess one of the reasons I'm not afraid is that I do believe that we live
00:20:06 --> 00:20:09 in a story of a God that is redeeming the world.
00:20:09 --> 00:20:13 And I do believe in resurrection. And I think if all of that is true,
00:20:13 --> 00:20:18 even the worst things that could possibly happen aren't keeping us from the,
00:20:19 --> 00:20:22 ultimate, you know, salvation of us all.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:26 There was a—I recently actually talked to another Episcopal priest,
00:20:27 --> 00:20:31 Michael de Lashmet, about AI.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:34 And one of the things that he talks about is.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:39 It's that we should be focusing on presence over intelligence.
00:20:39 --> 00:20:44 And I think for a long time as humans, we think, and it's even in our name of
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 Homo sapien, it's based on intelligence.
00:20:49 --> 00:20:57 And what AI does is kind of say, okay, you have this artificial thing that is
00:20:57 --> 00:21:01 intelligent, can do things, can do all of these things.
00:21:02 --> 00:21:10 Is that what makes us human? And his whole thing is, no, it's about presence.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:20 And we could even stretch this out to what about people who have intellectual disabilities?
00:21:22 --> 00:21:27 Are they not human because they don't have intelligence? Right.
00:21:27 --> 00:21:33 Of course not. I think what AI is doing is in some ways might be focusing on,
00:21:33 --> 00:21:38 and I think you've even said about this, is that intelligence is important. I'm not saying it's not.
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42 But it's not necessarily what makes us human.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:45 Right. That goes back to soul. So, I mean, to me, it's love.
00:21:45 --> 00:21:49 I mean, it's his presence. But to me, it's love, right?
00:21:49 --> 00:21:52 Machines can't love, right? Humans can love.
00:21:53 --> 00:21:56 How can we love? Because we're made in the image of God. How are we made in
00:21:56 --> 00:21:58 the image of God? We are inspirited with souls.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:04 And so we, no machine can do that ever.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:10 And again, to me, that is the thing that I love the most about AI is it makes
00:22:10 --> 00:22:15 it so clear the value of love.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:19 And that's what we proclaim as Christians, that love is stronger than death,
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22 that love is stronger that love is all that matters, right?
00:22:23 --> 00:22:28 And we know that this is true. This may seem tangential, but I get that way.
00:22:28 --> 00:22:32 I remember on September 11th, I had just left New York City.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:36 I just had moved away from New York City just weeks before September 11th.
00:22:36 --> 00:22:41 And I had friends who died that day and I had several friends who were in the
00:22:41 --> 00:22:45 World Trade Center and escaped with their lives or at Trinity Wall Street Church
00:22:45 --> 00:22:46 and escaped with their lives.
00:22:48 --> 00:22:52 I know people who called their loved ones because the cell phone was relatively new.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:57 Many people who are about to die called their loved ones.
00:22:57 --> 00:23:04 What did they say? Every last one of them said, I love you, right?
00:23:05 --> 00:23:10 Go on with your life, love others. And not one of them, as far as I know,
00:23:10 --> 00:23:15 said, go avenge my death, go kill other people because of what happened to me.
00:23:15 --> 00:23:19 No, when you're in your last moments of life, you know that it's true.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:21 The only thing that matters is love.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:29 And so when we get into AI and its power, it shows to me that it's even more powerful.
00:23:30 --> 00:23:37 Again, our lives, our ability to love, that is the only thing that matters in the end.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:41 And it's making it more valuable, right? And we see this in the world where
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 people long for community. They long for relationship.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:51 They long for love. And ultimately, love comes from God, and it comes from being made in the image of God.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:55 And so therefore, again, someone who's a pastor, who's a priest,
00:23:55 --> 00:23:59 you know, it's just like, woohoo, now you see it. Now you see why this is so
00:23:59 --> 00:24:02 valuable. This is what you need. This is all you need.
00:24:02 --> 00:24:06 And it also, like, if one version of AI that people project,
00:24:07 --> 00:24:11 which is that it's going to take people's jobs, you know, if If you take that
00:24:11 --> 00:24:15 out further, what people hope it's going to do is make work.
00:24:16 --> 00:24:20 That you don't have to do work anymore unless you want to be creating things
00:24:20 --> 00:24:22 out of your own creativity.
00:24:22 --> 00:24:27 In other words, it will eliminate the need to work in order to get the basics
00:24:27 --> 00:24:33 and necessities of life, which would be awesome, which I think is also already
00:24:33 --> 00:24:35 giving us so much more free time.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:39 And then when we have all this free time, what do we do with it,
00:24:39 --> 00:24:45 right? Like, Ultimately, it's about our purpose in life and who we are as humans
00:24:45 --> 00:24:46 and why that's so valuable.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:51 And again, that just makes me super excited.
00:24:55 --> 00:25:01 So kind of going back on the title, how have you used AI in a way that you think
00:25:01 --> 00:25:06 is for love, especially for love of God and love of neighbor?
00:25:06 --> 00:25:11 Well, I mean, right now I use AI so much for my work.
00:25:11 --> 00:25:16 Like I have created all these sort of dashboards for my various,
00:25:17 --> 00:25:20 you know, I have all sorts of, you know, I work on contract and I work here
00:25:20 --> 00:25:22 and there, I consult and all those sorts of things.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:28 So I create dashboards for all of my work and I have AI coordinate and sort
00:25:28 --> 00:25:32 of, you know, create frameworks for the work that I do.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:36 And I feel like my whole ministry is made possible by AI.
00:25:37 --> 00:25:41 And even though I will say that people are like, oh, don't use AI for sermons.
00:25:43 --> 00:25:48 First of all, on Easter Sunday two years ago, I did this little trick to my congregation.
00:25:49 --> 00:25:53 Congregation, I had AI write me an Easter sermon. And I got up in the pulpit,
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 which I never get in the pulpit anymore. I almost always preach from the ground.
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 I got up in the pulpit, I opened up a piece of paper, which I also never do.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:04 I just, I don't use notes. And I started, and I just read this sermon that AI
00:26:04 --> 00:26:07 had written from the page. And it was a perfectly like, you know,
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09 this is the resurrection and Jesus and all that.
00:26:09 --> 00:26:13 And everybody just stared at me like this. And I got down from the pulpit and I was like,
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 what, was that it? And they all laughed. And I was like, what did you think?
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 And then I confessed that AI had written it. And then I said,
00:26:20 --> 00:26:23 and they were like, oh, thank God that didn't sound like you at all.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 And I was like, why didn't it? And then I talked about that idea of like,
00:26:26 --> 00:26:29 it didn't convey my soul.
00:26:29 --> 00:26:32 It didn't convey my belief. It didn't convey my joy. It didn't,
00:26:32 --> 00:26:33 like all of that kind of stuff.
00:26:33 --> 00:26:39 And so I did that. But I still do use AI for sermons because I can say.
00:26:41 --> 00:26:49 Could you please review 2 sermons on the Transfiguration and give me the,
00:26:50 --> 00:26:52 points that people most often make, right?
00:26:52 --> 00:26:59 And that's awesome. Or can you research what this Hebrew word means and in what
00:26:59 --> 00:27:05 context and how close is this to a modern day understanding of what this Hebrew word meant, and,
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 how might that be different than people at the time might use this Hebrew word.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:15 And something that might take me weeks to research, a time that I do not have,
00:27:15 --> 00:27:19 I get a report from AI that gives me all of this word study,
00:27:19 --> 00:27:24 all of this context, all of this history, that then I can use in my sermon, and then
00:27:24 --> 00:27:27 it empowers me, I think, to preach better.
00:27:30 --> 00:27:34 Yeah, I mean, I kind of wrestle about the whole using it for sermons.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:39 Obviously, writing is an issue, but it sounds like you're using it more for,
00:27:40 --> 00:27:42 the sermon preparation, the study.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:49 And you feel that that enriches, because it's pulling in a lot of stuff that
00:27:49 --> 00:27:51 you wouldn't be able to find or to look for.
00:27:53 --> 00:27:55 Yeah, I mean, I could probably do that, but it would take me months,
00:27:55 --> 00:27:56 and I don't have time to do that.
00:27:57 --> 00:28:01 Also, I have this online thing called Traco, which is a gym for your soul,
00:28:01 --> 00:28:03 so it's like ancient Christian practice.
00:28:04 --> 00:28:10 And so once a week, I do a live stream where I interview, and it puts in a quotation
00:28:10 --> 00:28:16 marks, an ancient church teacher, a monastic, an early church father or mother.
00:28:16 --> 00:28:20 And this is another great thing. I feel like all these writings are in the public domain.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:24 Do people really read them? A lot of it is dense. A lot of it doesn't seem to
00:28:24 --> 00:28:28 be in any way like have to do with our life. So I ask these questions.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:29 I come up with five questions.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:34 And then I ask AI, please research everything that St. Benedict ever said.
00:28:35 --> 00:28:39 And please answer these questions in St. Benedict's voice and use as many St.
00:28:39 --> 00:28:41 Benedict's quotes as you possibly can.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:44 And then I do this live stream where I interview St. Benedict,
00:28:44 --> 00:28:48 right? And I also use some obscure people, writings that even,
00:28:48 --> 00:28:50 I mean, I'd never heard of or whatever.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54 And so in this way, I feel like I'm sharing the wisdom of the monastics and
00:28:54 --> 00:28:59 the early church fathers and mothers with people who otherwise wouldn't.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:02 And people know who St. Benedict is, but a lot of people would have a hard time,
00:29:03 --> 00:29:09 quoting St. Benedict or knowing anything St. Benedict said or did that is relevant to their lives today.
00:29:10 --> 00:29:13 And so I have this interview, Coffee with Coaches, I call it.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:17 And so I get to interview the monastics live on Substack, which I just think
00:29:17 --> 00:29:18 is the coolest thing ever.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:21 All of that fueled by AI.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:27 I say that. I say, by the magic of AI, I have created this thing.
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 And yes, I do know AI can sometimes be wrong.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:34 And it's also possible that I've misquoted people, but honestly, I don't care.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:42 I'm doing the very best I can to share the wisdom of the monastics with people. who are learning to...
00:29:43 --> 00:29:47 Love God and love their neighbor and interact with a Christian tradition,
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51 people who want to be Christian but don't know what that means.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 And there's all sorts of, there's a million different ways to be Christian, right?
00:29:54 --> 00:29:59 And there's all sorts of competing things that Christians are supposed to do or can't do or whatever.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:02 And so what I'm trying to do is go back to the first Christians.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:05 I like to say the people who knew the people who knew Jesus,
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 how did they live their lives? What did they believe?
00:30:08 --> 00:30:11 How is that relevant to us today? Let's go all the way back in the 21st to the
00:30:11 --> 00:30:14 first century and see if we can build a bridge.
00:30:14 --> 00:30:22 And, you know, I can whip that up in an hour based on AI. Mm-hmm.
00:30:24 --> 00:30:31 One of the things that people tend to say about AI, or at least their fear,
00:30:31 --> 00:30:35 is that it will do the thinking for you.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:44 Obviously, what I'm hearing from you is not that. You are asking for information,
00:30:44 --> 00:30:49 but obviously you're also doing a lot of the prep work yourself.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:53 So it's not that. But what do you think about when people say that?
00:30:53 --> 00:30:58 Yeah, I mean, I still feel like there is a lot of,
00:30:58 --> 00:31:03 skill and creativity involved in basically asking the questions that you want
00:31:03 --> 00:31:08 to ask, like making the framework for what it is that you want to learn, right?
00:31:09 --> 00:31:16 And so I talk with AI in schools and stuff. So sure, like write a report about,
00:31:17 --> 00:31:21 whatever, the early church fathers. Yes, you could then just ask AI and it could
00:31:21 --> 00:31:23 write a report about the early church fathers.
00:31:23 --> 00:31:28 But it's going to decide what the scope of that is. And so to me,
00:31:28 --> 00:31:33 the question becomes like, what do you want to know? Like, why does this matter?
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36 Like, create a context for me. Why are we asking this question?
00:31:37 --> 00:31:40 And what good does it do? And so that has to come from you, right?
00:31:40 --> 00:31:44 You still have to ask the AI to do something, right? And so it's opening up
00:31:44 --> 00:31:48 this like, I mean, again, like this amazing world of creativity.
00:31:48 --> 00:31:52 And I think in terms of students or even Christians or basically anybody doing
00:31:52 --> 00:31:57 their job, the question becomes, what's the question you're asking, right?
00:31:57 --> 00:32:02 If everything is limitless, then it's like, I want to know certain things.
00:32:03 --> 00:32:07 Why, right? And so then that why becomes incredibly important.
00:32:07 --> 00:32:13 And so, yes, on one hand, that is true.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:17 Of course, I can have that report written. And of course, all the stuff I just
00:32:17 --> 00:32:21 talked to you about, about researching my sermon and stuff, I'm not actually
00:32:21 --> 00:32:23 reading those books and doing that research.
00:32:24 --> 00:32:28 But I had the idea, right? So to me, it was the creativity of saying,
00:32:28 --> 00:32:31 wow, I could interview early church fathers and we could make this into something
00:32:31 --> 00:32:33 that it helps you with your spiritual life, right?
00:32:33 --> 00:32:40 And so to me, it also opens these doors of ways, like I read St.
00:32:40 --> 00:32:43 Benedict in seminary, right? It's on my shelf.
00:32:43 --> 00:32:47 Have I opened it since in the last 30 years since I graduated from seminary?
00:32:48 --> 00:32:53 Nope. Now I can pull that book down and I can actually say to AI,
00:32:53 --> 00:32:57 hey, I have this book. I remember this was a really good book. Can you help me?
00:32:57 --> 00:33:01 Can you tell me what's in it and help me relate it to what it is that I'm talking about today?
00:33:01 --> 00:33:05 And so to me, that's actually helping me think.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:09 But to answer your question, of course. Yes, if we want to just be lazy and
00:33:09 --> 00:33:12 put out slop, as we say, what do they call that? Is it slop?
00:33:12 --> 00:33:14 AI, slosh, or slop. Yeah,
00:33:16 --> 00:33:21 that's fine. But I think this again gets me back to the soul, right?
00:33:24 --> 00:33:29 I mean, science, mathematics, art, reading, literature, it all started with
00:33:29 --> 00:33:35 the church, right? All of that started in monasteries and church institutions. Why?
00:33:36 --> 00:33:40 To bring people closer to God. Because people were burning with this kind of
00:33:40 --> 00:33:45 knowledge, creativity, curiosity of how the world, I think we still are burning in that way.
00:33:45 --> 00:33:49 And this helps us to go deeper and farther than we ever thought we could.
00:33:50 --> 00:33:54 But yeah, of course, we could just also be lazy and put out a bunch of slob.
00:33:57 --> 00:34:01 And that tells me that I have more work to do to help people understand,
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04 again, you have a soul, your life matters, you have a calling.
00:34:06 --> 00:34:10 And again, that goes back to the soul and love and being human,
00:34:10 --> 00:34:12 what makes us human and why it's so important.
00:34:12 --> 00:34:24 Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that has been missing in the talk about AI is how do we use it?
00:34:26 --> 00:34:32 A lot of it has been either it's great and we just don't ask any questions,
00:34:34 --> 00:34:36 or it's bad and we shouldn't use it.
00:34:37 --> 00:34:43 And I'm kind of of the belief that it's here. It's,
00:34:44 --> 00:34:52 We engage with it in so many different ways in the world, and that as Christians,
00:34:52 --> 00:34:56 the question isn't, is AI good or bad?
00:34:56 --> 00:35:01 It's, how do we use this, and how do we use this to the glory of God?
00:35:03 --> 00:35:07 Because that should be the question, but I feel like sometimes,
00:35:07 --> 00:35:11 especially the discussion right now, isn't there.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:19 It's, you know, I think you linked to an article by Albert Brooks,
00:35:19 --> 00:35:23 not Albert Brooks, Arthur Brooks. Yes, it was Arthur Brooks,
00:35:23 --> 00:35:26 right. Albert Brooks, wasn't he an actor? He's an actor, yeah.
00:35:27 --> 00:35:33 And it was interesting because he, of course, referenced another Leo,
00:35:33 --> 00:35:39 Leo XIII, and Rerum Novarum, which is kind of, I have read that encyclical and
00:35:39 --> 00:35:40 I thought it was really good.
00:35:40 --> 00:35:46 And that one is talking about things on the cusp of the Industrial Revolution.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 And one of the things that he talks about is the fact that while he had,
00:35:52 --> 00:35:58 Leo XIII was talking all about the dangers and how we should navigate things,
00:35:58 --> 00:36:02 it's not like it prevented bad things from happening.
00:36:02 --> 00:36:06 They still did. I mean, there were good things that happened.
00:36:06 --> 00:36:11 I mean, obviously, you know, there were things in labor and laws and things
00:36:11 --> 00:36:17 that I think try to protect us from the more dangerous parts or overreach of capitalism,
00:36:18 --> 00:36:22 but there are still people who are crony capitalism or things to that extent.
00:36:22 --> 00:36:24 And he, you know, lists other evils.
00:36:25 --> 00:36:29 And I think he was trying to say it's the same thing with AI, is that it's...
00:36:30 --> 00:36:36 This is not going to prevent bad things from happening because we live in a
00:36:36 --> 00:36:38 world with sin. It's just, it's going to happen.
00:36:39 --> 00:36:45 But I think the question is, how do we try to use this in a way that is ethical,
00:36:45 --> 00:36:51 in a way that is glorifying to God and that lifts up the dignity of humanity?
00:36:53 --> 00:36:55 Yeah, absolutely. Oh, there's so many things I want to say, though.
00:36:55 --> 00:36:58 Let me see if I can tease them out.
00:36:59 --> 00:37:03 A hundred percent, yes. Um, I think that.
00:37:04 --> 00:37:07 Again, I think there's this like fantasy in some people's heads or like out
00:37:07 --> 00:37:10 there, like that, you know, like if you can just do this right,
00:37:10 --> 00:37:11 you know, like we'll just do it step by step.
00:37:11 --> 00:37:16 But I think that like revolutions are certainly things like AI,
00:37:16 --> 00:37:20 like fire, like the industrial revolution, like the printing press.
00:37:20 --> 00:37:23 They come with a certain amount of chaos. That is just what happens,
00:37:23 --> 00:37:27 right? They're like progress, you know, like these things happen.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:29 And then again, it goes back to being out of control.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:35 We can only learn what needs to be regulated by doing the bad things.
00:37:35 --> 00:37:37 I mean, because there's no roadmap.
00:37:37 --> 00:37:41 I mean, I don't think anybody actually means to do bad things.
00:37:41 --> 00:37:44 I mean, maybe some people do, but whatever. But for the most part,
00:37:44 --> 00:37:48 I think a lot of the bad things that happen are unintentional consequences of
00:37:48 --> 00:37:49 the new ways we can do things.
00:37:50 --> 00:37:54 And so I think we have to do them before we're going to find out the things
00:37:54 --> 00:37:55 that we have to pull back on.
00:37:55 --> 00:37:58 I mean, we have to. There's no other way to do it. which to me goes back to,
00:37:59 --> 00:38:03 do with you, we can control everything, which also brings back to the whole idea is,
00:38:04 --> 00:38:09 is, you know, can we have, or do we imagine we are going to live in a world
00:38:09 --> 00:38:14 on earth in which there is going to be no more suffering and nothing bad is going to happen?
00:38:14 --> 00:38:19 And I think the answer to that is equivocably no, unequivocably no.
00:38:20 --> 00:38:26 Again, we believe, I believe we are part of a story that doesn't belong to us.
00:38:26 --> 00:38:31 We live in a world that is mitigated by sin, and we are living in a time where
00:38:31 --> 00:38:35 Christ has died, Christ is risen, and Christ will come again, right?
00:38:35 --> 00:38:39 We are living in the midst of that time between Christ is risen and Christ will
00:38:39 --> 00:38:42 come again, and it's not of our making, and we actually can't,
00:38:42 --> 00:38:45 like, we're along for the ride, right? Which doesn't mean we don't have work
00:38:45 --> 00:38:48 to do, and there aren't good and bad things we can do.
00:38:48 --> 00:38:53 So I would also say that, and I think you said it too, that like...
00:38:54 --> 00:38:57 Christianity does not promise that we won't suffer. Not at all.
00:38:57 --> 00:38:59 Suffering is baked into the story.
00:39:00 --> 00:39:04 Christianity promises that our suffering will be redeemed, right?
00:39:04 --> 00:39:09 And I think that it's so hard as humans to keep ourselves out of the role of
00:39:09 --> 00:39:15 the ultimate arbiter of, you know, making everything right. And we can't do
00:39:15 --> 00:39:16 that. We can't have God's job.
00:39:16 --> 00:39:20 We hate that, but we cannot. And we should thank God that we can't have God's
00:39:20 --> 00:39:23 job. Because again, we're all frail humans and all of us would make mistakes.
00:39:24 --> 00:39:30 Any one of us, the best intentioned people in the world are going to cause other people's suffering.
00:39:31 --> 00:39:34 That's part of life, right? And we should not be afraid to live it.
00:39:34 --> 00:39:36 Not that I don't have compassion for suffering. Of course I do.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:41 But that sense of, and we also, I think, because we live in that story,
00:39:41 --> 00:39:46 we live in a world that is progressing. We don't know where we're going exactly.
00:39:47 --> 00:39:51 But I think that this sense that we can't just say, okay, we've gotten far enough.
00:39:51 --> 00:39:55 We're going to stop. For whatever reason, we are moving forward in history towards
00:39:55 --> 00:39:57 something. And that seems really obvious.
00:39:57 --> 00:40:01 Not of our doing and not of our making. And we don't know what the end is,
00:40:01 --> 00:40:02 except I believe it's good, right?
00:40:03 --> 00:40:06 On this side of heaven. But I will tell you one thing, and maybe I shouldn't
00:40:06 --> 00:40:08 say this on a podcast, but I actually had this thought the other day,
00:40:08 --> 00:40:14 because I think about AI quite a bit, which is, maybe this is Christ coming again.
00:40:17 --> 00:40:24 Um in this sense if the people who make the ai world like sound all the good
00:40:24 --> 00:40:28 things like ai is going to cure our diseases it's going to cure climate control
00:40:28 --> 00:40:31 it's going to teach us how to live together it's going to,
00:40:31 --> 00:40:35 make us healthy body mind and spirit you know it's gonna it's gonna produce
00:40:35 --> 00:40:39 things it's gonna we're gonna get all the food we need for a fraction of the
00:40:39 --> 00:40:42 cost and none of the pollution and all of that kind of stuff we're going to
00:40:42 --> 00:40:44 colonize mars all of the things happen.
00:40:45 --> 00:40:47 Let's just say it all happens that way and we don't make any mistakes,
00:40:47 --> 00:40:49 which we know is not true, but that's for the sake of argument.
00:40:50 --> 00:40:55 I always say my belief about the second coming is that if there is ever a moment
00:40:55 --> 00:40:59 in the history of the world where every single person has love in their hearts
00:40:59 --> 00:41:02 at the same moment, that will be the moment, right?
00:41:02 --> 00:41:06 When the kingdom of God is truly at hand and Christ comes back and all of that.
00:41:06 --> 00:41:13 And so maybe, because I don't know, maybe if we create something that is able
00:41:13 --> 00:41:19 to solve all of our problems, and that causes us to live in contentment,
00:41:20 --> 00:41:24 that will be the trigger to Christ coming again, and then we really will be in heaven.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:27 I think it's unlikely, but I think that that's a possibility.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:31 Then the last thing I'm going to say is the word we, because I'm very sensitive
00:41:31 --> 00:41:35 to this because I'm a church reformer, I'm a church transformer.
00:41:36 --> 00:41:41 And I'm not picking on you for saying this, but I think we always talk about what we are going to do.
00:41:42 --> 00:41:46 And this goes back to why I love the encyclical so much. When I go talk to churches.
00:41:47 --> 00:41:54 They, often enough, people in the room say, we should do this, or we should do that.
00:41:54 --> 00:41:58 We should start a children's choir. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a homeless shelter? We.
00:41:59 --> 00:42:04 And I always stop them and I say, when you say we, who are you imagining this
00:42:04 --> 00:42:10 we is? And if you scratch the surface, it ends up, what they mean is somebody who's not me.
00:42:11 --> 00:42:14 I would be really great if in the name of this institution, somebody else did
00:42:14 --> 00:42:16 this thing, but don't count on me for that.
00:42:17 --> 00:42:21 And so this is the thing that I read in the encyclical that struck me about
00:42:21 --> 00:42:25 the encyclical is that the Pope makes it personal.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:30 To me, the question is, how am I going to use AI to make the world a better
00:42:30 --> 00:42:33 place or engage with it to make the world a better place?
00:42:33 --> 00:42:36 I don't think we can, I mean, And if you live in America today,
00:42:36 --> 00:42:39 you are using AI, right? If you go to the bank, if you go to the grocery store,
00:42:40 --> 00:42:43 if you drive your car, I don't think that we have a choice not to use AI.
00:42:44 --> 00:42:46 I guess if you live in the woods and you live completely off the grid.
00:42:47 --> 00:42:54 But how am I going to be intentional about using AI to make the world a better place?
00:42:54 --> 00:42:57 And I think, and again, that goes back to the power that we do have.
00:42:57 --> 00:42:59 Sorry, that's a lot. No, no, no.
00:43:00 --> 00:43:06 But I think you're right, is that we forget that it kind of,
00:43:06 --> 00:43:13 I mean, it is about, well, I won't say it is about us, but it focuses on what I'm going to do.
00:43:14 --> 00:43:16 But, and ultimately, it's up to God.
00:43:18 --> 00:43:23 But I think that sometimes what I'm hearing from you, and I think there is a
00:43:23 --> 00:43:29 lot of truth in it, is that we want to take any type of responsibility off of ourselves,
00:43:29 --> 00:43:35 and put it on to some we out there that's going to do that, whether it's the
00:43:35 --> 00:43:39 government or the leaders of tech companies or someone.
00:43:39 --> 00:43:41 But it really comes down to me.
00:43:41 --> 00:43:44 How am I going to use this?
00:43:45 --> 00:43:47 Right. That's very biblical, right? It was a Jeremiah who said,
00:43:47 --> 00:43:49 I'm only a boy, right? And Gideon.
00:43:50 --> 00:43:52 I mean, God, how are we going to prevail against this army that's so much bigger
00:43:52 --> 00:43:54 than us? And God says, I don't know.
00:43:54 --> 00:43:57 You figure it out. You're in charge now, right? Like this whole sense of like,
00:43:58 --> 00:44:00 and to me, that's also very inspiring. Because I think that,
00:44:00 --> 00:44:04 I also think this is part of the many crises that are in our country right now and in our world.
00:44:05 --> 00:44:09 I think one crisis is that sense that like, my life has value.
00:44:09 --> 00:44:16 I have a calling. What I do matters. And I have the power to make the world a better place.
00:44:16 --> 00:44:21 Or not. And so often I hear people, I'm just a boy or I, whenever I have this
00:44:21 --> 00:44:25 limitation or that limitation, or I can't possibly do that, or I can't,
00:44:25 --> 00:44:29 like, I don't have resources or I have trauma or all that kind of stuff.
00:44:29 --> 00:44:33 And again, this is not about not having respect and understanding of people's struggles.
00:44:33 --> 00:44:39 But I also feel like one of the great things that AI does is it is a great leveler, right?
00:44:39 --> 00:44:44 So I don't think, I mean, you can go to your public library and get on the free
00:44:44 --> 00:44:49 computer and use the AI there, right? So it's like.
00:44:51 --> 00:44:54 Your lack of resources, even your lack of abilities. I mean,
00:44:54 --> 00:44:58 again, AI is helping people hear who have never heard before,
00:44:58 --> 00:45:00 walk who have never walked before, that sort of thing.
00:45:00 --> 00:45:07 It is calling us to live into the fullness of who we're called to be regardless
00:45:07 --> 00:45:10 of the limitations or the suffering that we have experienced in our lives.
00:45:10 --> 00:45:13 And I think that's very empowering. Yeah, I think one of the things that we
00:45:13 --> 00:45:16 don't hear a lot in our culture,
00:45:18 --> 00:45:23 is that we talk about all the things that the dangers of AI,
00:45:23 --> 00:45:27 but we don't talk as much about what it can do that's good.
00:45:29 --> 00:45:35 One thing I recently read in the news is that they think that,
00:45:35 --> 00:45:41 and I think it's from mail, that they think that they may have found a way to
00:45:41 --> 00:45:50 detect pancreatic cancer years before we can see it on an x-ray.
00:45:50 --> 00:45:57 And the way that they did this is that AI could scan in ways and see things
00:45:57 --> 00:46:01 that a human couldn't see until it's too late.
00:46:02 --> 00:46:07 Right. And so that this could actually cut off, you know, that they could actually
00:46:07 --> 00:46:11 find it much earlier and may be able to, you know.
00:46:13 --> 00:46:21 Maybe not yet cure, but at least be able to stop this advance far earlier than they could.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:23 But we don't hear as many of those stories.
00:46:24 --> 00:46:27 And here's an example. And I wonder why that is. Yeah. And here's an example
00:46:27 --> 00:46:32 of where I think artificial intelligence can do something that could actually,
00:46:33 --> 00:46:35 as you said, using AI for love.
00:46:35 --> 00:46:41 It could be an enhanced human life in a way that wasn't possible 10 years ago.
00:46:42 --> 00:46:46 Or edit people's genes directly so that, like, you don't even have to take horrible
00:46:46 --> 00:46:51 chemotherapy or other treatments that are also going to hurt and be, like, and, yeah, I think
00:46:51 --> 00:46:56 that even now, I mean, like, right now, you can pay $100 for a blood test that
00:46:56 --> 00:46:59 will tell you if you have any number of cancers in their very early stages.
00:46:59 --> 00:47:02 And that's just after, like, a couple of years. Like, we are,
00:47:03 --> 00:47:07 like, the idea that AI could cure all disease in a very short amount of time.
00:47:08 --> 00:47:10 I often hear people complaining about, like, you know, truck drivers.
00:47:10 --> 00:47:13 We have driverless trucks, and all these truck drivers are going to be out of work.
00:47:13 --> 00:47:18 Never mind that truck driving is incredibly dangerous, pays terribly.
00:47:20 --> 00:47:24 And that truck drivers work under some of the worst conditions.
00:47:24 --> 00:47:26 And personally, I wouldn't want someone to have to do that.
00:47:27 --> 00:47:31 But also that car accidents, and especially truck accidents,
00:47:31 --> 00:47:34 are 100% human error, right?
00:47:34 --> 00:47:37 And so everyone gets all upset when the Waymo runs over the cat.
00:47:37 --> 00:47:45 But the reality is that self-driving cars and trucks could potentially probably
00:47:45 --> 00:47:50 already have saved thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives.
00:47:51 --> 00:47:53 All the people who die in car accidents and motor vehicle accidents.
00:47:55 --> 00:47:57 I mean, that's kind of amazing. I want to live in a world where,
00:47:57 --> 00:48:01 yeah, I'm actually scared of self-driving cars. Because I'm such a control freak
00:48:01 --> 00:48:03 that I'm like, oh no, I want to put the brakes on.
00:48:03 --> 00:48:05 What if it goes wrong and it drives me over a cliff?
00:48:06 --> 00:48:10 Stuff. But the actual reality is, your machine is going to be much,
00:48:10 --> 00:48:13 much, much safer because it's not going to be driving drunk.
00:48:13 --> 00:48:16 It's not going to be distracted. It's going to be going the speed limit.
00:48:17 --> 00:48:19 It's going to stop if things go wrong. All the things, right?
00:48:19 --> 00:48:21 It's not going to fall asleep at the wheel.
00:48:22 --> 00:48:27 And so, you're right. I mean, the potential for that is... I mean,
00:48:27 --> 00:48:29 I just read an article about, it was in the New York Times, I think, about.
00:48:31 --> 00:48:36 She lives in remote, whatever, Saskatchewan. And she is elderly.
00:48:36 --> 00:48:39 She's 90 years old. She doesn't have family. She lives by herself down a dirt road.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:43 And they gave her this little robot. It was this cutest little thing.
00:48:43 --> 00:48:47 And it looks like a lamp and it turns its face towards her when it talks.
00:48:47 --> 00:48:49 She knows it's a robot, right?
00:48:50 --> 00:48:54 But it checks in with her, it plays games, it asks her to tell her stories,
00:48:54 --> 00:48:58 and it can, if she doesn't respond in a certain amount of time,
00:48:59 --> 00:49:03 it will call somebody else to check in on her, it takes her temperature, all that kind of stuff.
00:49:03 --> 00:49:08 So guess what? This woman can continue to live on her own in this isolated place
00:49:08 --> 00:49:12 where she wants to live because she has this little thing that's like checking
00:49:12 --> 00:49:14 in on her, but also keeping her company because she can get lonely
00:49:15 --> 00:49:19 and also very easy to call in for help or,
00:49:19 --> 00:49:22 alert her daughter or whatever if something happens.
00:49:23 --> 00:49:28 That's what I say. I'm looking forward to getting old and having my robot to get me.
00:49:32 --> 00:49:36 Anyway but yes i think there's so many wonderful things there is a great netflix
00:49:36 --> 00:49:40 show about ai that i just watched it's very beautiful,
00:49:41 --> 00:49:45 um well you can look it up it's on netflix it's about ai and it's um this guy
00:49:45 --> 00:49:49 like he's in his 30s and he and his wife just got married and they're expecting a baby,
00:49:50 --> 00:49:53 and he's totally freaked out about the whole ai thing and he keeps reading all
00:49:53 --> 00:49:57 these things from people that say it's going to destroy the world and humanity
00:49:57 --> 00:50:00 only has like 10 more years and I wouldn't have kids if I were you and all this kind of stuff.
00:50:00 --> 00:50:04 And he's like, literally can't sleep. And he's like, I've got to find people,
00:50:05 --> 00:50:08 oops, who tell me a different story. Like I can't live like this.
00:50:08 --> 00:50:12 And so he goes and finds the same level of qualified people,
00:50:12 --> 00:50:17 people who work with AI tests, people, you know, and they say the opposite.
00:50:17 --> 00:50:19 Like, you know, it's going to cure
00:50:19 --> 00:50:21 disease. It's going to make sure that everybody has some stuff to eat.
00:50:21 --> 00:50:26 It's going to cure climate change. It's going to make all of our water clean
00:50:26 --> 00:50:29 and all of our air clean, and it's going to give us safe places to live and,
00:50:30 --> 00:50:35 connect us in ways that we can't even imagine and discover things that we've only begun to discover,
00:50:36 --> 00:50:37 and we're going to live in peace and plenty.
00:50:37 --> 00:50:40 And that is just as likely.
00:50:42 --> 00:50:47 I believe it's more likely, but we don't have any evidence that one of those
00:50:47 --> 00:50:48 things is more true than the other.
00:50:48 --> 00:50:51 But yeah, you're right. We almost always hear about the negative.
00:50:51 --> 00:50:55 Do you think that part of the reason there is such a negative view about AI
00:50:55 --> 00:50:58 is that people feel burned by social media?
00:50:59 --> 00:51:04 And one of the things that I have noticed over the years, and,
00:51:05 --> 00:51:11 I think that social media has good uses, but I think it also has had bad uses,
00:51:12 --> 00:51:16 and people feeling more lonely and all that stuff.
00:51:17 --> 00:51:23 But I remember 20 years ago when Facebook was kind of on the scene,
00:51:23 --> 00:51:30 how much everyone kind of billed it as this wonder that was going to do everything.
00:51:32 --> 00:51:38 And when the future happened, it didn't happen in the way that we all wanted it to.
00:51:39 --> 00:51:45 And so, and I think one of the problems I think also that happened was is that.
00:51:46 --> 00:51:50 Maybe at least in some sectors of the church, especially in mainline,
00:51:51 --> 00:51:57 we never really asked what were the unintended consequences of social media.
00:51:58 --> 00:52:03 And so, now everyone's like, oh, this is all terrible. And so now they look
00:52:03 --> 00:52:09 at this other technology that's now the nascent technology and they're thinking,
00:52:09 --> 00:52:12 we've been burned already. We don't want to go down that road.
00:52:13 --> 00:52:19 So now people are kind of, that they're very kind of against AI because of how,
00:52:19 --> 00:52:21 things turned out with social media. That's interesting.
00:52:22 --> 00:52:26 Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to me, too, because I think it's so easy for us to forget.
00:52:27 --> 00:52:31 I mean, again, here I am at home. I just spent the day the other day with my
00:52:31 --> 00:52:33 best friend from high school. And the reason that I'm still in really good touch
00:52:33 --> 00:52:35 with my best friend from high school is because of Facebook, right?
00:52:36 --> 00:52:41 So it immediately made me think about the nearness. Again, my ethics professor,
00:52:41 --> 00:52:44 the great Tom Breenthal, who just died recently, he used to say that Christianity
00:52:44 --> 00:52:47 is about nearness. It's about who is my neighbor.
00:52:48 --> 00:52:51 So who is nigh or near, right?
00:52:51 --> 00:52:55 And social media made manifest the nearness of pretty much everybody.
00:52:55 --> 00:52:58 So in some ways, that's a miracle, right?
00:52:58 --> 00:53:02 We can now be near everybody and anybody.
00:53:02 --> 00:53:06 And of course, that has unintended consequences. Of course, we don't want to be near everybody.
00:53:06 --> 00:53:10 Of course, not everybody is pleasant to be near. And some people are going to
00:53:10 --> 00:53:13 harm other people and all of that kind of stuff. And that's absolutely 100% true.
00:53:14 --> 00:53:18 Another person I was just talking with was talking about how the Middle Ages
00:53:18 --> 00:53:23 were like the most productive time of human history, you know,
00:53:23 --> 00:53:24 like the greatest advancements.
00:53:25 --> 00:53:33 Because at the beginning of the Middle Ages, most people had never left like
00:53:33 --> 00:53:37 a quarter square mile around the place where they were born.
00:53:37 --> 00:53:42 Like literally had never been a mile away, not even five miles away.
00:53:42 --> 00:53:47 And so the isolation that almost everybody lived with, right?
00:53:47 --> 00:53:51 And when people finally figured out, was it the printing press?
00:53:51 --> 00:53:54 Well, in a lot of ways, it was the church. This person was talking about how it was the churches.
00:53:55 --> 00:53:58 Like people wanted to go see the great cathedrals. How were they doing it?
00:53:58 --> 00:54:02 And they wanted to meet spiritual teachers. And then they started to walk.
00:54:02 --> 00:54:05 I mean, pilgrimages. Like they started walking to other places and then they
00:54:05 --> 00:54:08 came in contact with other people and then trade and then blah,
00:54:08 --> 00:54:09 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:54:10 --> 00:54:12 So that was a long way of saying,
00:54:13 --> 00:54:19 First of all, I think we had, like, measurably so many more problems when we
00:54:19 --> 00:54:21 never left the quarter square mile around the place that we were born.
00:54:22 --> 00:54:27 So, including a very short and brutal life, right? Like, our lives are so much better.
00:54:28 --> 00:54:33 But the other part of that is we can be in contact with anybody at any time, right?
00:54:34 --> 00:54:38 And again, that's part of the whole—it brings me back to the gospel, because most things do.
00:54:39 --> 00:54:44 This idea that like nearness is something that we can have immediately,
00:54:45 --> 00:54:47 right? And we're not necessarily prepared for that.
00:54:48 --> 00:54:51 And this also goes back to like, who are you in relationship with God?
00:54:51 --> 00:54:54 How do you understand yourself to be human? How are you loving other people?
00:54:55 --> 00:54:59 Because we then come into this sort of, if you will, artificial nearness,
00:54:59 --> 00:55:06 or maybe near in some ways, but not near in other ways that is sort of warping and,
00:55:07 --> 00:55:11 then and then we can't get away from it so like that sort of i feel like there's
00:55:11 --> 00:55:16 a spiritual discipline to that that has not caught up with the digital age and
00:55:16 --> 00:55:17 i think that i mean that's,
00:55:17 --> 00:55:22 i think that's what you're articulating right yeah um because um.
00:55:23 --> 00:55:27 We haven't learned, and maybe this is also the job of the church.
00:55:27 --> 00:55:31 I'm thinking of that right where you're saying that. This is part of the spiritual
00:55:31 --> 00:55:36 guidance, spiritual maturity that the church can offer is what does it mean?
00:55:36 --> 00:55:40 We know what it means. Most of us know what it means to be in Christian community with one another.
00:55:41 --> 00:55:45 How does that happen in places where we're not physically near,
00:55:45 --> 00:55:51 but we are spiritually near or emotionally near or virtually near?
00:55:51 --> 00:55:55 You know, what does that, you know, what does that require of us in that sense
00:55:55 --> 00:56:00 of hospitality, openness, boundaries, you know, that sort of thing?
00:56:02 --> 00:56:05 Yeah, because I don't think that the church has really dealt with that well
00:56:05 --> 00:56:13 about technology, whether it was social media then and or AI now, is that we don't know.
00:56:13 --> 00:56:18 I mean, this is a whole different animal. And as I said earlier,
00:56:19 --> 00:56:24 we're not going backwards. I mean, this is all here. So the question is.
00:56:27 --> 00:56:33 How do I use it? And I think that that's something that, especially at least
00:56:33 --> 00:56:39 in the Protestant world, most of us haven't done a good job. So, I mean, I think that,
00:56:42 --> 00:56:47 Pope Leo has come out with something that at least is in the beginning of a,
00:56:48 --> 00:56:52 how do we approach this is important.
00:56:54 --> 00:57:01 And I'm also having gone to school and went to high school at a Catholic high school and all that.
00:57:01 --> 00:57:07 I've always had an affinity for Catholic social teaching because they at least
00:57:07 --> 00:57:11 have an understanding of, here is this world, how do we live in it?
00:57:11 --> 00:57:16 And how do we live in it for the glory of God? That sometimes I think as Protestants,
00:57:16 --> 00:57:18 we haven't done a good job.
00:57:19 --> 00:57:22 Yeah, I think that's a really great point. And that also makes me think,
00:57:22 --> 00:57:29 especially the social media, now AI, and how does the church teach and how does
00:57:29 --> 00:57:32 it invite us to live into those faithfully.
00:57:33 --> 00:57:37 I think one thing that I've been experimenting with lately and I think that
00:57:37 --> 00:57:41 is sort of really interesting is that we live in a world now where each one
00:57:41 --> 00:57:45 of us personally or as an organization can create,
00:57:46 --> 00:57:50 own digital world, if you will. Like instead, like, so, I mean,
00:57:50 --> 00:57:54 as small as I created a church chat for my little church, which is,
00:57:54 --> 00:57:57 you know, it's like texting, but they use the church app and so they can all
00:57:57 --> 00:58:00 talk to each other, but nobody's in it but them, you know, that sort of thing.
00:58:00 --> 00:58:06 We can create digital spaces that are bespoke for our organization or our institution
00:58:06 --> 00:58:10 or our community and have people be meaningfully part of them, right?
00:58:10 --> 00:58:15 And so like to broaden, And this also goes back to the whole us versus like
00:58:15 --> 00:58:19 getting the government to do stuff or getting the tech companies to do stuff.
00:58:20 --> 00:58:26 I, you, we as a church can right now create a digital space that people can
00:58:26 --> 00:58:28 inhabit the way we want to inhabit it, right?
00:58:29 --> 00:58:31 And uphold the values and what we use it for.
00:58:33 --> 00:58:36 And then again, just like church itself, I would say not to keep people out,
00:58:36 --> 00:58:41 but to set boundaries around what we believe, how we live, what we understand
00:58:41 --> 00:58:44 our faith so that we can bring Brickle in, right? Like come in here.
00:58:44 --> 00:58:48 However, if you come in here and you're abusive, then you're going to have to
00:58:48 --> 00:58:54 sit outside the community until or unless you can live within this framework
00:58:54 --> 00:58:55 of what we have established here.
00:58:55 --> 00:58:58 It's not, we're not rejecting you. Like I say, all people are welcome,
00:58:58 --> 00:59:00 but not all behavior is welcome, right?
00:59:00 --> 00:59:07 And so to create concentric circles of relationships that are built upon the,
00:59:08 --> 00:59:11 and again, and truly help one another, right? Share resources,
00:59:12 --> 00:59:15 support one another, you know,
00:59:17 --> 00:59:22 all manner of things. We have that power now. We don't have to rely on Facebook
00:59:22 --> 00:59:25 anymore. And I think Facebook knows that, right? Which is why it's changing so much.
00:59:26 --> 00:59:31 To find each other and to create digital spaces and communities that are in
00:59:31 --> 00:59:33 keeping with our values and beliefs.
00:59:34 --> 00:59:37 For ourselves and i think that's one of the reasons i love substack so much
00:59:38 --> 00:59:41 is that's the way they're going too is that it's become a place it's not just
00:59:41 --> 00:59:46 to blog or to write articles anymore or newsletters it is they're actively encouraging
00:59:46 --> 00:59:49 us and giving us the tools to create our own digital,
00:59:50 --> 00:59:55 platform that belongs to us and and incorporates people in any way we want them to.
00:59:58 --> 01:00:01 Where do you and we can use that for great good i think so,
01:00:02 --> 01:00:09 Where do you think you see the church when it comes to AI in the next five or ten years?
01:00:11 --> 01:00:16 It's moving fast. So, obviously, we're always going to be kind of trying to
01:00:16 --> 01:00:24 catch up with where you see us, see the church, and how it handles artificial intelligence.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:28 Well, because it's my bias and because it's what I do, I think the church as
01:00:28 --> 01:00:32 an institution is not going to change. I mean, I think it's going to be like,
01:00:32 --> 01:00:36 you know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you know, even as it continues to happen,
01:00:36 --> 01:00:38 like with so many other issues or whatever.
01:00:39 --> 01:00:42 I also think we have the possibility, and I think we're doing it,
01:00:42 --> 01:00:48 I know I am, to reconsider what it means to be church in today's world from the ground up.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:53 And again, creating new kinds of communities for worship and the practice of
01:00:53 --> 01:01:00 the faith and new ways of connecting to the love of God and to loving one another
01:01:00 --> 01:01:04 in God's name and what that means with living our lives in that way.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:14 And I think spaces that are both digital and foster in-person meeting are rising
01:01:14 --> 01:01:16 up and will continue to rise up.
01:01:16 --> 01:01:19 And we will find that AI helps us.
01:01:20 --> 01:01:25 And also, again, back to the whole, I hope the church discovers that it is making
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28 it so much more valuable to be human.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:32 Human connection, human love, that sort of thing. that, again,
01:01:32 --> 01:01:33 we have this thing that is precious.
01:01:34 --> 01:01:40 How are we fostering sharing it as a church? Do I think that the current institutional
01:01:40 --> 01:01:44 church is gonna do much? I don't. Unfortunately, I don't have a ton of hope.
01:01:46 --> 01:01:50 But again, this goes back to Pope Leo. We have that power. You do.
01:01:51 --> 01:01:54 I do. People who follow Jesus do. People who are in ministry.
01:01:54 --> 01:01:57 People who want to serve others have that power right now to be creating those
01:01:57 --> 01:01:59 things. And I think that that's one of the things was.
01:02:00 --> 01:02:06 We forget in this kind of digital age is that people don't have to wait for
01:02:06 --> 01:02:11 someone on high to make this decision. We can do that.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:16 We can. And I hear people all the time, in the church especially,
01:02:16 --> 01:02:19 saying, well, use your voice, use your power, all that kind of stuff.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:24 But often what they mean is use your voice to complain or to try to get someone
01:02:24 --> 01:02:26 else to stop doing what they're doing.
01:02:27 --> 01:02:31 It almost hardly never works to try to force other people to do things that
01:02:31 --> 01:02:33 you don't want them to do, but they want to do it.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:36 And it causes unnecessary violence for everybody.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:40 But you don't have to do that. You don't have to use your energy or your voice
01:02:40 --> 01:02:43 to try to make other people stop doing things.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:47 You can use your voice to start doing the things that you want to see more of
01:02:47 --> 01:02:51 and support other people doing the things that you want to do more of.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:55 And I think that's obviously much more powerful, but it's also directing your
01:02:55 --> 01:02:58 energy. And now we have, you know, ever greater tools.
01:02:59 --> 01:03:04 Like, again, like physical diseases, people, scientists, doctors,
01:03:04 --> 01:03:10 they are focusing their energy on how can we create an environment to help AI
01:03:10 --> 01:03:12 rid the world of disease altogether?
01:03:12 --> 01:03:16 Think what we could do as ministers if we said the same thing with how could
01:03:16 --> 01:03:23 we help AI help rid the world of suffering and loneliness and division?
01:03:25 --> 01:03:26 I mean, that's something I'd sign up for.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:29 Maybe I'll have to do it myself.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:35 Knowing you, I can see you, you would come up with something.
01:03:37 --> 01:03:43 Thank you, Dennis. So if people want to know more, and I know you have,
01:03:43 --> 01:03:48 and your kind of things are kind of in flux, but where should they go?
01:03:48 --> 01:03:51 Because you have a lot of stuff. Free range priest.org.
01:03:51 --> 01:03:54 Yeah, I've started all these different things, and then I realized that was not good.
01:03:55 --> 01:03:58 And all the AI in the world can't help me. And again, you launch,
01:03:58 --> 01:04:02 and then you realize where you could do that better. And so I'm trying to consolidate
01:04:02 --> 01:04:05 the things that I have been doing in all these different areas into one place.
01:04:05 --> 01:04:09 And it's all just going to always exist at freerangepriest.org.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:12 And we're a little bit under construction right now for the summer,
01:04:12 --> 01:04:16 but you can still find me there. You can still subscribe, and I'll take you along on my journey.
01:04:18 --> 01:04:21 All right. Thank you. This has been a fan of this conversation.
01:04:22 --> 01:04:25 It has been. And I think it's been a hopeful conversation because,
01:04:25 --> 01:04:30 as I've said at the beginning, a lot of the conversation isn't hopeful.
01:04:30 --> 01:04:37 And I think that Pope Leo's encyclical was not as much – I mean,
01:04:37 --> 01:04:40 obviously, it did talk about danger, and that's important.
01:04:40 --> 01:04:42 But I think it also talked about hope.
01:04:44 --> 01:04:52 This is not – we're not necessarily headed towards the Matrix or Terminator or something.
01:04:53 --> 01:04:58 There is hope because we have hope in a God that rose from the dead.
01:04:58 --> 01:05:02 That's where we can place it. Right, 100%. Oh, I was thinking of one other thing.
01:05:02 --> 01:05:03 I know we got to go, but that reminded me.
01:05:04 --> 01:05:07 More and more, I read about...
01:05:08 --> 01:05:14 Tech, like scientists in AI who are becoming Christian, right?
01:05:14 --> 01:05:18 Like they push, when they get to the ends of like, we can do anything and we
01:05:18 --> 01:05:23 can build anything and we can have anything, then they feel this sort of spiritual emptiness.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:28 Where is the meaning in my life, right? And how more and more tech bros are
01:05:28 --> 01:05:35 becoming Christian, right? Because they, again, they value this sense of being
01:05:35 --> 01:05:37 made in the image of God and they want to grow closer to God.
01:05:38 --> 01:05:42 And so to me, you know, that's the best thing right there. Like,
01:05:42 --> 01:05:46 is that, again, when we can do anything, have anything, build everything,
01:05:46 --> 01:05:48 it all comes back to love, right?
01:05:48 --> 01:05:51 That's the thing that matters for everybody, everywhere, always.
01:05:51 --> 01:05:55 All right. Well, Kathy, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.
01:05:56 --> 01:05:58 And I definitely will have you back again.
01:05:59 --> 01:06:01 Thank you. I can't wait. And thanks for your time, Dennis. It's always great.
01:06:04 --> 01:06:06 Thank you.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:35 So I'm curious what your thoughts are about the episode.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:41 What do you think? Can AI be used as a tool for love?
01:06:42 --> 01:06:47 As usual, you can send me an email at churchinmain at substack.com.
01:06:48 --> 01:06:54 I'm also going to include links to Kathy's article and links to one that I wrote
01:06:54 --> 01:06:59 just recently on my substack that you may want to listen to.
01:07:00 --> 01:07:06 I'm sorry, that you may actually want to read. I've got podcasts on the brain here.
01:07:07 --> 01:07:10 Also, if you want to learn more about the podcast, listen to past episodes,
01:07:10 --> 01:07:14 or donate, check me out at churchinmaine.org.
01:07:14 --> 01:07:19 You can also visit churchinmaine.substack.com to read related articles,
01:07:19 --> 01:07:21 like the one I just said about AI.
01:07:23 --> 01:07:28 Also, I do put these episodes, most of the episodes on Substack.
01:07:28 --> 01:07:33 They usually occur about a week after they post on churchinmaine.org.
01:07:36 --> 01:07:42 You can also become a member on a paid member on the sub stack,
01:07:43 --> 01:07:48 i don't really put anything behind a paywall but if you want to donate you are
01:07:48 --> 01:07:53 free to do so you can subscribe for five dollars a month or sixty dollars a year,
01:07:54 --> 01:07:58 and you can go to churchinmain.substack.com to do that and there's also,
01:07:59 --> 01:08:05 you can also make a one-time donation through Buy Me a Coffee,
01:08:05 --> 01:08:07 and that link is in the show notes.
01:08:09 --> 01:08:13 I also hope that you will consider subscribing to the podcast on your favorite
01:08:13 --> 01:08:17 podcast app, and that you will consider leaving a rating or a review.
01:08:17 --> 01:08:19 That helps others find the podcast.
01:08:21 --> 01:08:24 So, that is it for this episode of Church in Maine.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:29 When you hear this, when it first goes out. It will be on Juneteenth,
01:08:29 --> 01:08:31 so happy Juneteenth to everyone.
01:08:32 --> 01:08:36 Take care, everyone. Thank you so much for listening.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:41 Take care. Godspeed, and I will see you very soon.